Rangers

Neil Lennon: Rangers titles can't stand if found guilty in contracts case

Celtic manager Neil Lennon has stated again that he believes Rangers must be stripped of titles if the Scottish Premier league rule that the Ibrox club broke contract rules.

The SPL disciplinary process is continuing as the league seeks to establish if Rangers paid players outwith their registered contract over a number of years.

Lennon, who was a Celtic player during that time, believes there are moral questions to be answered. The Parkhead club finished as runners up to Rangers in five of the years in question, and Lennon says he wants history to reflect the situation.

"I will see what the commission finds and, if they are found to have broken the rules, then they should be stripped of their titles,” the Celtic manager told the Daily Mail.

"It will not change what has gone on in the past but I suppose there will be a sort of moral victory in that respect.”

Lennon said that from his own point of view, he wouldn’t need a physical award but wants the recognition for the teams he played in.

"It is not going to change my life now, by any stretch of the imagination, but it would be good to be changed for historical reference,” he explained.

"I can't get that title or feeling back and it won't make a huge dent on my life from here on in. It would be a lot better on my CV, though. I wouldn't want the medals - just the recognition. That would be enough."

He also expressed the opinion that the effects of any proven advantage gained by Rangers acting outwith the rules raised more potential questions about the impact on players and managers.

"At that time, though, it might have cost players contracts, bonuses, managers their jobs and might have relegated teams,” he added.

"There are so many ripple effects to it. Again, you go back to the integrity of the game. Was it there? If not, then it should be investigated. That is all we ask for. We are in the game for the glory and then the money comes with it.

"The more successful you are, the more money you get but when you are a kid growing up all you want to do is to play football for a big club and to win things. That never changes."

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Actually the situation is worse than reported on a number of Scottish media outlets and there is no chance of them being found not guilty - the guilty decision has already been made.
Rangers stole a total of 20 trophies.
Rangers stole 7 SPL Titles from Celtic. 7
In addition, they stole Scottish Cups from Celtic (twice), Aberdeen, Dundee, Queen of the South and Falkirk. 6
They also stole League Cups from St Johnstone, Ayr United, Celtic (twice), Motherwell, Dundee United, and St Mirren. 7
How could anyone suggest that after all this cheating they keep these trophies? I am ready to answer anyone coming with a (non) continuity argument.

Calvin Knox 19/07/2012 Report this place
looks like 12 in a row for neil lennon and celtic and not much standing in the way of another 3 at least and a world club record, i suppose thats your reward for playing fair.

horse 19/07/2012 Report this place
This really is scraping the bottom of the barrel now. We have Nacho's indecipheral gibberish and Tom Boyd's self riteous piffel, but Lennon should know better. He is managing Celtic and must know just how inflammatory his comments are. In fact if you compare what STV and Record have reported, you realise how toned down STV's version is. The fact is that there is an investigation by the SPL (The SFA are the appeal body) into the possibility of dual contracts and, already, we have the manager of the one team that might benefit, calling for titles to be stripped. Keep your wig on people. If Rangers had players on dual contracts then those people should be dealt with accordingly by the law, but cheating? Yes it's tax evasion, it's a terrible way to run a business and it breaks the SFA's rules, but I don't see the connection with cheating, or financial doping as Mr Lennon calls it. In fact, I would be far better inclined to interpret Neil Lennon (and some other managers and players) persistent hounding of referees as cheating. They should be ashamed of themselves, seeking to gain an unfair advantage. Of course I too have just fallen into the trap of speculating on events that probably never happened.
Watch rugby. There is no back chat to referees. They are called sir and treated with the utmost respect. That's how it should be.

Ashamed of nothing. Offended by everything. 19/07/2012 Report this place
In addition, if you are right about both the crimes and the verdict, there is no automatic declaration in favour of Celtic. How do you calculate who would have won each match? what if those players were not playing? What about the teams Rangers beat? That also helped Celtic. I'm afraid you have a number of problems with your argument. Firstly, if the decision is already made, then it is prejudicial and will be overturned and secondly it is unlikely that Rangers actually gained any advantage from these contracts. Notice I refer only to the vague possibility of unregistered contracts and not EBT's, which are legal, were reported in accounts and, again had no effect on the outcome of matches.
Your argument amounts to little more than going into your neighbours garden and stealing his bike - well finders keepers.

Ashamed of nothing. Offended by everything. 19/07/2012 Report this place
At the end of the day it was 11 v 11 on the park for every game in question. You just were not good enough Neil. What was done was believed to be perfectly legal at the time and in fact your own club ventured down the same road. Different if the players on one side had taken performance enhancing substances etc... Is what you have witnessed happening to Rangers in the last year not enough to satisfy your hatred ??? If the titles are stripped from Rangers for this then world football has a major problem as most of the successful clubs have been living outwith their means for years. Do we revisit every title and champions league game you lost against them too Neil ??? Get a grip, you have your pound of flesh now go sit in a corner and smirk all you like.

Get_A_Life_Declan 19/07/2012 Report this place
"Your argument amounts to little more than going into your neighbours garden and stealing his bike - well finders keepers."

Your statement says it all. Rangers have the right to go into their neighbours garden and steal their belongings and then declare it as Finders Keepers, Really?

They have the right to steal the taxpayers money to fund title winning teams, Finders Keepers - etc. etc. and that's why your club is about to be liquidated and then replaced in Division 3 by a new club from Sevco 5088, with whatever name they give it that doesn't sound too like the team liquidated otherwise they will be responsible for the £134million in debt and some taxpayer will go to court to have the court make the call.

Sour 19/07/2012 Report this place
Ashamed: You should be. You don't understand the clubs who were deprived through cheating see Rangers name instead of their own against all those trophies in th official records? You don't understand that Celtic lost millions in income through not being able to take their rightful place in European competitions? You understand nothing and your post has no value to anyone.

Calvin Knox 19/07/2012 Report this place
Get a life dumbo: If that's the best you can come up with, you are a very primitive poor soul. These competitions take place between clubs who claim the prizes in their record books and the winning clubs benefit financially. If they cheat, their financial benefit is a fraud perpetrated on the clubs they cheated. The players are a resource to these clubs like the pie shop or the carpark. I won't ask you if you understand.

Calvin Knox 19/07/2012 Report this place
Ranking Club Debt 1. Manchester United £716m 2. Chelsea (Limited) £701m 3. Valencia C.F £501m 4. Liverpool £351m 5. Real Madrid £296m 6. FC Barcelona £273m 7. AS Roma £271m 8. Schalke 04 £234m 9. Arsenal £203m 10. Fulham £198m

I reckon if you apply the same logic you should have won the champions league too... Look at all these clubs playing with money they do not have. Go get them dude PMSL

Get over it !!!

Get_A_Life_Declan 19/07/2012 Report this place
Lennnon...you just can't leave it alone can you your a rocket, the only reason your kicking rangers when theyr'e down is it leaves you team at the top with NO real competition but remember your only there by default not because of your teams ability on the pitch...JUST be carefull of those you walk all over on your way up...coz they will be the same people you'll pass on the way down..your just a leetch,and a low life parasite now f4k off

maureen 19/07/2012 Report this place
Again, that wonderfully emotive word cheating. If you repeat a word over and over, louder and louder, it does not make it more true. You forget too easily the financial shenanigans of the Kellys pre Pacific shelf 595. Rest assured, your clubs have significant skeletons in their closets. You are just afraid, that having created a myth, it will come back to haunt you, and it will. Pacific Shelf 595 are cheating right now. They are trying to persuade people of the guilt of their greatest rivals and decide what the punishment should be. They voted them out of the SPL so they could win titles and get into the Champions League year after year. If I was you I would be very afraid of using the kind of ridiculous scaremongering terminology that has proliferated since the rise of the idiocracy. It will probably the same language being used against you as the dust settles and you are all alone in a prison of your own construction.

Ashamed of nothing. Offended by everything. 19/07/2012 Report this place
Ashamed: (1) no automatic declaration in favour of Celtic. Wrong, that's the way and the only way this situation has been dealt with in other countries. (2) decision prejudicial Meaningless expression in this context. No one has to even speak to Sevco before making the decision. (3) unlikely that Rangers actually gained any advantage from these contracts. Factually irrelevant. The mere fact that the contracts were not presented is a breach of SFA and FIFA rules. (4) EBT's legal: Correct but WRONG IF OPERATED IN THE WAY Sevco did. (5) no effect on the outcome of matches. Totally irrelevant, its the financial advantage Sevco gained through lowering their oprating costs via tax evasion. This gave them an unfair advantage versus ll the other teams who stuck by the rules. (6) Your argument amounts to saying you want to prevent the rightful owners going into your garden and takig back the bike you stole. (7) well finders keepers.Stupid comment, admission of guilt or saying its ok to take the bike? Either way you are one stupid numpty.

Calvin Knox 19/07/2012 Report this place
Wondered how long it would be before Lennon poked his nose in. Had a laugh when he said justice should be done, unless of course it applies to him then he does his best to get off scot free. He also single handely caused a refs strike because he didn't like their decisions SPORTING INTEGRITY vanishes when it suits.

littleian 19/07/2012 Report this place
Calvin, Muppet's like you are fanning the flames of the hatred between the old firm. I hope that one day you do not get burned by the inferno you and many others like you have created. To have an opinion on something is fine, but that does not give you the right to start insulting people because they have a different view. I was actually enjoying reading this up until you made a fool of yourself. I need add no more.

Get_A_Life_Declan 19/07/2012 Report this place
Calvin, I'm afraid I doubt you are being disingenuous, so you must be a bit dim. The bike analogy was about your argument regarding trying to steal Rangers' titles, not the other way round. Plus Sevco has never operated an EBT whereas Pacific Shelf did and they didn't declare it. What else have they still to declare?
In fact this this is a little storm in a tea cup whipped up by people who can't bear to be also-rans. Your silly argument about financial advantage doesn't hold water because Celtic were always beaten by the better team on the park. Rangers had the best team and that's all there is to it.
Enjoy being the whale in the fish pond for a few seasons,
I bet you'll still be....

Ashamed of nothing. Offended by everything. 19/07/2012 Report this place
The now defunct Rangers FC (IA) cheated by virtue of fielding ineligible players.

The titles which can be shown to have been 'won' by cheating should be removed from them, and where possible, results recalculated to show who the true winners of them were.

The history books should then be amended to show that the now defunct Rangers FC (IA) had these titles removed from them retrospectively because they cheated, and that the titles awarded to the team which did actually win them.

If a sprinter wins the 100m Gold at the Olympics, and is subsequently found to have cheated to win, then it naturally follows that the Gold medal is removed from them and handed to the true winner.

Football is no different.

Award the titles to their rightful owner.

Declan Murphy 19/07/2012 Report this place
Ashamed, your post said: "Your argument amounts to little more than going into your neighbours garden and stealing his bike - well finders keepers". So if I Calvin am the subject of the sentence it means I have the right to take the titles - finders keepers. If you Ashamed are the subject, you can go into my shed and take the bike, you are allowed to keep it - finders keepers. This is why I called you stupid. You produce a completely ambiguous hypothesis where both outcomes are wrong and stupid. You may know what you meant but I am commenting on what you wrote. My first reply to you took your seven points apart and proved them all wrong, factually. No emotion, no sideways tangents. Here is is again. See if you can dispute on a factual basis anything of what I am saying. .

Calvin Knox 19/07/2012 Report this place
Enough is enough, we should be able to keep our titles the players were registered legally with the spl even with the whole ebt thing the players were there LEGALLY, the sfa are also totally against rangers they gave them punishments that weren't even in their rule book

David 19/07/2012 Report this place
Unlike other people who've added their comments here, I don't have an axe to grind and I find the actions of Rangers FC, referred to by Neil Lennon, utterly reprehensible. The club did cheat, it's as simple as that and many people were adversely affected by its cheating. Of course the club should have the titles and trophies it won while involved in cheating taken away from it. Why should the club be allowed to benefit from its cheating any more than it already has benefitted?

Ken 19/07/2012 Report this place
@David

"the players were registered legally with the spl"

No, they weren't.

That's the entire crux of the matter.

I give up with some of these people. They're beyond talking to on a reasonable level.

Declan Murphy 19/07/2012 Report this place
Declan, I ignored the leech stuck onto the sole of your shoe.

Calvin Knox 19/07/2012 Report this place
Maureen, that's terrible language for a young catholic mother.

Calvin Knox 19/07/2012 Report this place
bhoys you still have to prove that any cheating went on, it really is desperate and pathetic that this is what is required now, what exactly would green teeth gain from this, then he wonders why he is hated and it gets called sectarianism, oh dear

glasgow rangers fc 19/07/2012 Report this place
rangers submitted their accounts year on year, they had nothing to hide.
Its not illegal, have the great unwashed not had enough enjoyment? of course not more lies and speculation as the wounded animal tries to get back on track, sums you lot up perfectly

glasgow rangers fc 19/07/2012 Report this place
declan if rangers are defunct why would you want to remove titles, they don't exist

its a bit like trying to remove awards that the news of the world received, ya trumpet

glasgow rangers fc 19/07/2012 Report this place
Unlike other people who've added their comments here, I don't have an axe to grind and I find the actions of Rangers FC, referred to by Neil Lennon, utterly reprehensible. The club did cheat, it's as simple as that and many people were adversely affected by its cheating. Of course the club should have the titles and trophies it won while involved in cheating taken away from it. Why should the club be allowed to benefit from its cheating any more than it already has benefitted?

LIAR!

glasgow rangers fc 19/07/2012 Report this place
@glasgow rangers fc

Defunct merely denotes that the club has ceased to play as a football club, it does not mean that the records for the now defunct club have been erased.

Every game in which an unregistered player played should be awarded 3-0 to the opposition, and the league recalculated, and the true winner of the titles awarded them retrospectively.

It won't make up for the loss to the players and fans of the memories which they should have enjoyed, but at least its a start.

Declan Murphy 19/07/2012 Report this place
the comments on here from the illiterate f.c fans are hilarious. it really is hard to believe that an entire army of fans can be so STUPID. the arguments the GREAT UNEDUCATED tend to use on internet blogs have the debate capacity of a crack whore that just injected herself with a fatal dose of heroin.
keep em comin' you ignorant bears, we really do enjoy your humour - even tho its a misdemeanour.

Goodbye fat Sally & the Gollum's of Govan!

Another21tCebturySlave 19/07/2012 Report this place
What a petty small minded man.

HonestFan 20/07/2012 Report this place
Ashamed of nothing. Offended by everything.

You clearly have no clue as to what cheating is - no wonder you and your fellow Gers fans never asked the questions that needed to be asked of your Chairman. You were only too willing to accept success no matter how ill gotten those gains were. You were part of the vicious cycle that killed your club and perhaps that is why you are after the heads of Whyte and Murray now. You cried for greater success and the weak Sir David couldn't bear to tell you all the truth - he couldn't afford to give you the success you craved. Not without cheating.

Now let me explain why it was cheating. You signed players who financially were out of your reach through normal contractual means. You used EBTs (a perfectly legal system currently) in an a way that HMRC are yet to declare illegal (although I'm confident it will). The reason it was cheating is that these payments, via EBTs, were part of the players' salaries, however they were not declared on the contracts that these players signed. This contravenes SFA and SPL rules.

Now what is the word for someone who breaks the rules in a game?

This rule breaking allowed Rangers to put a team on the field they otherwise would not have been able to. That team won those cups/titles. Now, it is possible that even without the EBT/side-contracted players Rangers would still have won some of those trophies BUT we will never know. All we know is that they cheated to put a better team than they could afford on the pitch.

They put winning about fair play. That's not what sport is about and that is why they cheated.

Gerard 20/07/2012 Report this place
Also. Im any game where an illegible player played the result is reset to a 0-3 to the opponent. It is simple to change all the results in a season and see the real winner - it is harder for cups but easy in the league.

Gerard 20/07/2012 Report this place
Oh dear, oh dear, Calvin, Declan and co you really have no idea how rabid and unhinged you sound. Your self referencing and elliptical arguments have only one point - to find a scapegoat for all your inadequacies and pour out all your bile and hatred onto it in the hope of finding some sort of release for your inner torments. But redemption does not walk with malice. Rangers have been severely punished but it is not enough for you. It will never be enough for you because you hate yourselves. You want to take what was never yours. Have some pride in yourselves, support your own team instead of denigrating others', it's the only way. You are never going to get the result you want. Rangers exists, otherwise you wouldn't hate it so much. Those trophies were won by better players. You would do much better to try to set your own records by trying to jump higher, not by trying to lower the bar. The way you are going about your business is very sad indeed and I can only feel sorry for you.

Ashamed of nothing. Offended by everything. 20/07/2012 Report this place
No matter who was playing for Rangers at the time and whether they were paid in Provie vouchers or Brown envelopes or had simply been ADVISED about and joined a PERFECTLY LEGAL tax saving scheme similar to that used by THOUSANDS OF INDIVIDUALS AND COMPANIES throughout the UK.

The Rangers TEAM won the games!

THERE WAS NO CHEATING BY ANYONE ON THE PLAYING FIELD AND TO WHINE AND COMPLAIN IS CHILDISH AND PATHETIC.

Running a business entails seeking and taking advantage of legal loopholes to retain as much profit as possible which is exactly what RFC were doing. Our successive governments introduce and withdraw TAX SCHEMES regularly and frequently cause problems for businesses who can find their projected cash flows affected dramatically just as Banks can offer deals to businesses and later change the rules again causing turmoil and indeed causing businesses to close.

Local and National Governments are also guilty of encouraging businesses to invest / gamble in proposed projects ( like the Casino licence that was touted around ) which are seen as potential profit makers and employment providers. David Murray was clearly impressed by the opportunity presented by the Government should he win ( on behalf of Glasgow ) the casino licence and went ahead with site clearing and hiring of architects, surveyors, engineers, etc on the expectation of winning that licence.

There must have been considerable cost involved and had the Government played fair Glasgow would have benefited hugely, but the Government of the day chose an ENGLISH city depriving GLASGOW and SCOTLAND of jobs and investment.

What I'm suggesting is that through the actions of OTHERS the business of RFC found themselves with
debts and had to take whatever action was necessary to keep in business just as any business would have done BUT a Bank ( for whatever reason ) saw fit to prevent Rangers progress by refusing to allow them to invest in players several times over the past 2-3 years.

In the words of a well known Irishman....................THERE WAS A CONSPIRACY to take out RFC which has been successful, but I believe the Rangers that arises from the ashes over the next couple of seasons could ( if handled carefully ) become BIGGER, MORE SUCCESSFUL in Scotland and around the world.

What's happened has been an attack on more than RFC but on millions of people around the world, of a particular background and belief. Having said that...................I hope the outdated " songs " will be replaced and the tin whistles consigned to the bin, or at least found better tunes to play. I know it can sound " rousing " and get the hairs on the back of the neck standing, but it's really negative and we need to be VERY POSITIVE to move forward.

Finally..............I hope the comments and recent advertising from Celtic come back to haunt them!

robm 20/07/2012 Report this place
robm

EBTs are legal. FACT
HMRC are investigating whether this scheme was abused - used to illegally dodge tax. FACT
The SPL forbid teams from making regular salaried payments outwith the contracts submitted to them. FACT

If Rangers used EBTs to pay their players a 'top-up' onto their regular salary and it wasn't declared to the SPL then they have broken those rules. Even if HMRC say the scheme is legal they would still have broken the SPL rules.

However HMRC are looking to see if the EBT payments were part of the players' regular slaries and if found to be the case it means they should have been income taxed along with the rest of their wage. Rangers would owe this money as they oversaw the perversion of thie legal scheme.

From the evidence already exposed it appears Rangers have broken the rules of the SPL and the law regarding tax.

Yes the team won the games but that team would not have been assembled if Rangers had not used these rule breaking methods! That is why it is cheating!!

You lot obviously don't know what cheating is and it's hardly a surprise since you supported Cheats FC. At least you have a new club to support and maybe you will all learn lessons from this and actually ask questions of your new board.

Sustainability should come above short-term success.

Celtic: Always have been...always will be :)

Gerard 20/07/2012 Report this place
Gerard,

That's why you cannot be judge and jury. If a company owes the tax man, then it has to pay them back. You can't know whether those winning teams would have been assembled or not. The likelihood is that they would have been. Which contracts and which payers are we talking about? What if there were dual contracts, for instance, but what if players on those contracts did not play in games Rangers won? Would you still demand those titles?
Too many people are behaving like panicky children around a buzzy bee, destroying everything around them trying to swat something that's just trying to live its own life.
Celtic Existed and then became Pacific Shelf 595. Always will be.

Ashamed of nothing. Offended by everything. 20/07/2012 Report this place
Despite the judicial panel deliberating for 7 months they are still unable to find against Rangers yet everyone on here has had them guilty for years.

Rangers declared the EBT payments in their annual accounts submitted to and accepted by the SPL every year without fail and no issue was ever raised until HMRC highlighted some administrative errors.

EBT’s are widespread in football.

Rangers have consistently had a smaller wage bill than Celtic during this period even despite these payments and still won the titles.

The saving from the EBT equated to under 5% of Rangers turnover so to say they coudn’t afford these players is simply untrue.

These are the facts. Man-up and accept your team simply wasn’t good enough to win those titles.

Pacific Shelf 595 still.........

Ashamed of nothing. Offended by everything. 20/07/2012 Report this place
Ashamed of nothing. Offended by everything.

Where is your proof that those teams would in all likelihood have been assembled? Even if they could have been assembled does that justify cheating? That's like saying I've stolen an iPad but I could've afforded it anyway so I'll just keep it. No the fact I could afford it is irrelevant - I still stole it!

Only games where those players took part are forfeited - see FC Sion vs Celtic FC last season. Not all of the five inelligible players took part but it only needs one of them to step onto the pitch.

You really don't understand cheating do you?

It doesn't matter if Rangers submitted the payments INTO the EBT in their accounts. The players were paid OUT of the EBT and these regular payments were not in the contract. How hard is that to understand? Also - of course they had smaller wage bills! The EBT payments made by Rangers were INTO the EBT to avoid tax!

Pacific Shelf = grasping at straws.

Man-up and accept your club is dead.

Gerard 20/07/2012 Report this place
My girlfriend and i were out in a rowing boat when we saw a guy standing by the river.

He spotted us and shouted "that looks like a lot of hard work"

"you're not wrong there mate" i replied, "but she does have a lovely pair of tits"

kaspar_hauser 20/07/2012 Report this place
My girlfriend and i were out in a rowing boat when we spotted a guy on the river bank.

He saw us and shouted "that looks like a lot of hard work"

"You're not wrong there mate" i replied, "but she does have a lovely pair of tits"

kaspar_hauser 20/07/2012 Report this place
You cannot hold onto titles if they have been won by means of cheating ... asking for the titles to stand as Mr McCoist is doing ... is a continuation of 'cheating'

If it is found that rules had been broken ... it is cheating if you don't accept punishment.

www.dadabongo.com

You must note:

* not meeting criteria to play in Europe is NOT a punishment
* a newco starting in Division 3 and a newco that has never played in any other league is NOT demotion and NOT a punishment
* winning titles and cups by making payments undeclared to footballing bodies is cheating and there has NOT been any punishment yet for this possibly breaking of rules

What if other clubs decided to do the same and sign players on the same basis of cheating HMRC out of taxes etc and winning titles by cheating HMRC, SFA, SPL, other clubs and the fans of other clubs, without paying debts and in fact transferring assets worth £105 million for only £1million ???

dadabongo 22/07/2012 Report this place

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Neil Lennon: Rangers titles can't stand if found guilty in contracts case

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